User: Slrubenstein

From open-encyclopedia.com - the free encyclopedia.

Hi. I have nothing to say about myself beyond what I contribute to articles, which I hope reflects my knowledge and interests but not my biases, and to talk pages, in which I try to be honest about my biases, especially if someone asks.

Since I have been here people have posted questions and comments to my user page and talk page indisriminately. I don't much care. I will usually try to respond on your own talk page, but sometimes I respond here as well.

Jesus and the Sadducees

A bit troubled by your re-edit of the Jesus page suggesting that he had no significant interaction with the Sadducees. There is significant evidence in the New Testament accounts of these interactions. Dismissal of what is virtually the only set of witnesses to his life is a bit extreme in my view. As well, the removal of the YHWH reference to the Aramaic rendering of the INRI announcement on the cross is valid. In the Aramaic it would not be the tetragrammeton name of God but would be YHMWH at the very least (assuming the article was used--which it need not have been given the absence of the non-definite article in the language). --eleuthero 20:34, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)User:eleuthero

China and Socialist States

I resent your tone on the China talk page. I do research for a living and research anything I work on here on wiki. I have spent a ludicrous amount of time working on wiki. I ran up a phone bill of 400 euros in work for this encyclopædia (I have to pay by the minute). So I do not appreciate the suggestion that I don't check my facts. In the past week I have sent 6 emails to organisations for information, made 9 phone calls, sought permission from 3 sources to use pictures and worked on a large number of articles, all for wiki. So please don't lecture me on research or commitment to wiki. ÉÍREman 20:08 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

JTDIRL, Although I admit that my feelings of frustration and anger were provoked as much by 172 as by you, I cannot apologize for my remarks, although I had no doubt that you resent them. But let us be clear ? I was not suggesting that you have no commitment to research or Wikipedia in general. I was criticizing your continuous inability to engage in a respectful and meaningful dialogue with other Wikipedians ? a good many of whom are at least as dedicated to Wikipedia, and research, as you. Believe it or not, I and others also do research, and it is personally insulting and professionally unconstructive when someone (in this case you) is utterly dismissive of other people?s work. When this whole exchange began, you wrote:

A socialist state is meaningless and not used by political scientists as a definition of the state. It may define the politics of the state, but that is a different thing entirely.

And I explained that there are political scientists who do call China a socialist state; I also cited a journal. At one point, you responded with this ? and if you want to, please explain to me in what universe you could possibly believe someone such as myself would not ?resent? the tone and content of this patronizing and dismissive remark:

It is like groundhog day here. The facts regarding definitions are explained. Then people misunderstand or misrepresent them, go off on irrelevant tangents, so the facts are explained again, people come back, misunderstand them, misrepresent them, go off on tangents so the facts are explained again, people come back misrepresent them . . . . oh God, will someone please wake me up from this nightmare!!! ÉÉÍÍREman 23:21 Apr 23, 2003 (UTC) (Monty Python should make a film of this page. It is surreal enough!)

Let?s be very clear: I did not accuse you of ?never? doing research ? as you know from the past I have (and continue to have) a high regard for your knowledge of Irish history and politics. I did, however, accuse you for not doing research on Chinese politics, and I certainly will go so far as to qualify that now by saying that you did not seem willing to demonstrate to me or others that you had done any research, or share that research with the community. You simply made a bald assertion and refused to consider any alternative. You made a claim that no one identifies China as a socialist state, and gave no evidence. I did give evidence of people who identify China as a socialist state, and you ignored my evidence only to reassert the bald claim. I resent that.

I have checked some books published by university presses, and refereed journals, and have given examples of scholars using the term ?socialist state.? I have talked with tenured professors of sociology, anthropology, and political scientists, and have been told the following: virtually all anthropologists and sociologists classify China as a socialist state. In the past most political scientists classified it as a communist state, but most are abandoning that position. Some categorize China as an authoritarian state (contrary to the claims of some Wikipedians); some categorize it as a post-socialist state, although my own friends who are China scholars reject that; they prefer ?late-socialist state?. So you see, I do research too.

Let me continue to be clear -- I am not motivated by marxist ideology nor interested in marxist ideology, market reforms, or anything else. My only question is, how doe Western scholars describe the Chinese state -- I have done some research, and found than many if not most describe it as "socialist." How they go about classifying states, or what thye mean by socialist, is -- in this particular matter -- not of interest to me. All I want to know is how they classify China.

But given your pompous and disrespectful attitude towards your colleagues, I am sure you will ignore this and simply respond by asserting once again, ?No one calls China a socialist state? and accuse me of going off on tangents and misrepresenting or misunderstanding you. Believe it or not, at this point I can live with that. Slrubenstein 21:20 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

Yet again, you continue to misunderstand the point I and 172 have been making over and over and over and over again. We are talking about a FORMAL ENCYCLOPÆDIC DEFINITION, not an analysis of the nature of the political system. There IS NO SUCH THING as a FORMAL ENCYCLOPÆDIC DEFINITION called 'socialist state'. China's political system may be classed by some as a socialist state, but that is a generalised assessment of the nature of Chinese politics. But we are talking are talking simply about the FORMAL CATEGORY, repeat formal category, nothing more. 'Socialist' is an alward title because it means something different to US-based political scientists (who view it as far left), to northern Europeans (who view it as a form of social democracy), to southern Europeans (whose understanding of the term differs in Spain, Portugal and Italy), to Eastern Europe (where it is seen as everything from social democrat to moderate communist) to different parts of Africa (where it veers between hard left to middle of the road). Some see Tony Blair as a socialist, others call him a social democrat and call Tony Benn a socialist. Some called Francois Mitterand a socialist, others a number of different terms. Some think Gorbachev a socialist, others don't. So 'socialist state' means almost anything or nothing depending on whether the wiki reader comes from a British political culture background, a US political culture background, a French political culture background, a South African political culture background, an Australian political culture background, an Eastern European political culture background, an Asian political culture background etc. THAT is why no such universal term exists and why as a formal encyclopædic definition it is not used.

In addition it tells us nothing about the system of government, which is what a formal encyclopædic definition is supposed to do. Communist state does. It tells us that it is a left wing one party system in which the state and the party are embedded in each other, in which power resides not in the state institutions (the norm in liberal democracies) but in the party, with party officials who in reality may not hold state office holding power in a manner that would be restricted to a state office holder in a liberal democracy. 'That is what is meant by communist state; nothing more, nothing less, and 'socialist state' doesn't clarify whether it is a one-party or multiparty system let alone the relationship between party and state institutions. There is a narrow range of formal encyclopædic definitions for states; from absolute monarchy to constitutional monarchy/popular monarchy, federation, confederation, federal republic, etc. Communist state features on that list as a formal type of state. Socialist state does not.

By all means debate the nature of the political system and how communistic or socialistic or any other -istic Chinese politics is. But that IS NOT WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING. We are talking SIMPLY about a FORMAL ENCYCLOPÆDIC DEFINITION, slotting in the description of the constitutional system into a known category. It is pain having to constantly repeat this. Everytime it is repeated you come back, completely miss the point and start arguing about classifications of the politics of China. Then it is repeated again that we are discussing the formal encycloædic definition or classification, and you come back, go off on another tangent again about classifications of the politics of China. Please please please understand the issue being discussed and stop going off into debates to do with an analysis of the system of politics when all we are discussing is the system of government. ÉÍREman 00:04 Apr 25, 2003 (UTC)

I have no idea what you mean by "FORMAL ENCYCLOPEDIC DEFINITION" as an appeal to authority -- it is precisely the definition of the CHinese state that we are trying to establish. The question is, how does one go about establishing a formal encyclopedia definition? I have stated my method: survey scholarly literature. Slrubenstein

Effort

I'm such an admirer of your contributions, it's a shame that I had to be involved in a long protracted edit war with you over a single word. Do you want to go back to more constructive endeavors, like the history of the Soviet Union?

Sorry for the contentious nature of the debate.

172

Sometimes I wonder why I bother arguing with you,

I didn't know you had ever argued with me. I certainly do not recall ever arguing with you.

I might as well argue with a rock.

If you say so. I do know know what your experieinces of having argued with rocks has been like.

You seems to have a concept of "mighty is righty".

hmmmm. I will have to think about it. At least here at Wikipedia it does not matter; no one (with the arguable exception of administrators, of which I am not) here does anything through "might," or has more "might" than anyone else...

By the way, you are right.

Uh, thanks. Not sure what you are talking about.

So stop exporting your righteous.

Don't worry! They recently revoked my export license for "righteous." I actually stopped exporting "righteous" a year and a half ago, when the price started to drop!

Wikipedia does not belong to you.

Well, it doesn't belong to anyone, does it? Or does it belong to all of us?

There are 6 billion other people on the planet.

Oops -- I think it just went up to Six billion and one. No, two. Dammit!

Or do you claim to speak for them as well?

No, so far you seem to be the only one making that claim (that, or you are writing from the world's most crowded internet-cafe!)

Abstract Zionism

Dear SlRubenstein,

I am grateful for your frank comments regarding my abstract Zionism article. I wonder if you can help me resolve some confusion:

"An article on African-American separatism or nationalism can discuss "Zion" used as a metaphor -- but put it in its context, in its proper place. I do not know of any African-Americans who have used Zionism as a metaphor, but if any have -- again, put that in its apporpriate article."

Zionism as a metaphor

"it isn't a metaphor"

Does this mean that if I create an article entitled 'Zion as a metaphor" as opposed to "Abstract Zionism", you will work together with me on getting this the way it should be? If you'd rather discuss this by email, I have no problem with that. user:ericross

Wikipedia rules

Which talk page do you want me to read, then? Since I checked both yours and mine... -- User:172.150.241.163

Sorry, I meant the talk page for the article in question; I also just posted a note to your user page. Slrubenstein

Great, thanks for the explanation. -- User:172.150.241.163

Hi Sirub, sorry for not getting back earlier. I can offer little sourced help on the article on PM of the US. While I have certainly seen the term and had two books that mentioned it, both were in a box of books that got lost in a house move some years back. The fun of house moves, eh! The earlier one from 1931 did talk about widespread belief that the speaker would become effectively a type of pm at the end of the 19th century. Unfortunately, not alone do I not have the book, given my frighteningly large library, I'm damned if I can even remember the name of it. The second one I think was by Howard Baker and criticised the imperial presidency, etc. It too was in that damned box. I think I have its name somewhere in some academic article I did about a decade ago. Sorry I can't be of more help. ÉÍREman 23:52 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

Mr. User:Slrubenstein - Thank you for your reply, sir. It is unfortunate that there is a chance you may have misinterpreted the situation and/or forgot some of the Wikipedia policies and rules for contributing. (They are a lot of pages to read so I sympathize!) I understood that the policy of Mr. Wales in providing us the use of this site is that all users are respected equally irrespective of any claim as to education, skills, race, creed, or color made by some person logging in under whatever name they wish to use with whatever credentials they wish to claim. Ms. JHK arbitrarily and without just cause, deleted my work then when I pointed out the facts and Mr. Bauder concurred, they were restored. Ms. JHK of course has every right to research the matter and make any corrections if and when she can substantiate her changes to my work that shows I have made an error. Or, also, if the research I used draws different conclusions than the research she uses, we would discuss normal divergences of opinions and come to a mutually satisfactory answer in the best interests of Wikipedia as we are attempting to do on the List of French monarchs. Editing to improve, enhance and expand upon an article, is what the process is all about. I support that fully and would encourage Ms. JHK or you sir, to do that so as to improve upon anything I write or add to any article. It is the collective coming together of diverse experiences and the like that makes Wikipedia quite extraordinary, don’t you think? What is not done by users at Wikipedia, is the arbitrary reversal of any work posted by someone solely without foundation on the basis that someone “knows more than another and someday will get around to proving it.” As far as I know, Mr. Wales has not bestowed Ms. JHK with special status that allows her to override contributors without just cause because she claims to have certain knowledge. As a consequence, I would believe that Mr. Wales has not granted you special powers to set Ms. JHK above others. If he has, please advise me immediately so that I and other contributors will know what might happen to our efforts at Wikipedia. I’m certain you agree that special status based or not based on unproven claims of knowledge would quickly drive away any person wishing to make a contribution to Wikipedia and defeat the entire purpose of us ordinary people being here. I am sure Mr. Wales would agree that all contributors respect each other using reason and good dialog. I am trying very hard to cooperate and be a valued contributor but if you think I am out of line, or that it is your contention that it is the policy of Mr. Wales that some users are to be subordinate to certain others for any reason, please let us take up the issue with Mr. Wales. And please, if you can improve whatever little bit I was able to add to Clovis I, please do, improvements to the article are greatly welcomed. Now, I am not good with a computer. I have no idea how to revert things, so I would ask that you be kind enough to restore my work that you reverted for which I sincerely thank you in advance because I am continuing my Clovis research and want to add more to my work. And please Mr. User:Slrubenstein, have a very enjoyable and positive experience here at Wikipedia. Triton

Race

Slr-- thanks for your kind words on my Talk page. I only wish we could collaborate on a revamped Race article-- I think we have the makings of a really excellent article and a few hours' effort from each of us would get us there. Unfortunately, I never know in advance when I'll have the time *and* energy... Anyway, as a reader of Wikipedia, thanks for all your contributions. JDG

The Scientific Method

SLR, I appreciate very much the good faith and civility with which you are approaching our discussions at Talk:Scientific Method. At the same time, I would like to tell you that with each of your recent posts I have experienced a tiny provocation. I will not respond on the Talk page itself to your last post (in which, prudently I think, you invite others to weigh in), but I will say something about it here. What I have to say at least is pertinent to you and me and I think it might be pertinent to how you interact with others on Wikipedia as well.

The little provocations I perceive, which I imagine must be inadvertent, involve you 1) paraphrasing an intent or idea of mine in a way that makes it more simplistic and less astute than it was (both in my reckoning and in yours at times, as shown by #2), and on the heels of that 2)expressing all or part of my intent or idea as if you are elaborating on or criticising my post, and hence as if you were the first one to articulate the idea and hence as if I would benefit from hearing it from astute you. Now, I am very willing to accept at least some responsibility for such turns of events, because I know I am sometimes far from explicit and at other times unclear. Also, I can't characterize your approach to my posts as faulty in a general sense: In a classroom context, I expect it's best to assume that people need a lot explained to them, and I doubt that the particularly sharp undergraduates in the lecture hall resent a professor's implicit assumption that his listeners are less sharp than he or she (knowing that the lecturer wants to reach everyone). Yet the sharp student is liable to resent the assumption that he isn't sharp in office hours. In any case, I myself am no longer an student, and I find myself resenting the assumption that I'm less than sharp when I sense it being made--in particular when the possibly obscure wording of my post that led to the assumption reflects not just my laziness and not just a poor rhetorical choice but in fact a conscious decision on my part to address my readers as if they are as smart as I am.

So just to take the latest example, first you quote me "...that scientists are conscious of or have access to the model they are using, so that by just asking any one of them we could know what that model is. I think that would be a bad assumption." Then you say "I think this is a fine point...although as I said I am sure your point is often valid, it isn't universally so." I can see you bent over backwards to be polite, commending my point twice, and yet I hope you will be able to see that inadvertently you insulted me in ways 1 and 2 above: If you read carefully, my point was that it would be bad to **assume** that "by just asking any **one** of them we could know what that model is." I didn't say _no_ scientist could tell you what their actual model is, which I take you to be telling me and the world that I did when you say that the point does not apply "universally."

I think in my past reactions to things like this I have infuriated you by responding aggressively and without acknowledging your intention to be polite and to give me the benefit of the (unfortunately misestimated) doubt. I apologize for that. On the other hand, I'd like to ask you to either a) start pretending than I'm smarter than you currently seem to think I am and/or b)start assuming I have a writing disability and start pondering the intent of my posts extra carefully before responding. I will try not to be so irrascible, but given our history and my own psychology, I don't have much patience for the sort of slights I've described, even when they are unintended.168... 03:21 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Slights

SLR,

on my talk page you said in the context of "clarfication" that you suggested was directed to me personally

"I really thought it was evident from what I wrote -- and how I wrote it -- that I thought the preceeding comments (i.e. yours) were exceptionally intelligent. I am not sure what else to say.... it is possible that our personalities (and communication styles) are simply incompatible."

You might notice that above that in the post that you were responding to I wrote

"I can see you bent over backwards to be polite, commending my point twice" and "given...my own psychology, I don't have much patience for the sort of slights I've described."

Do you see how I may not have been in need of those specific points of clarification, having just expressed very similar points myself? (i.e. I credited you with paying effusive respect to my intelligence in a certain way, and I proposed psychology [just as you proposed "personality"] as an explanation)

This was hardly any irritation to me (in fact, I appreciated the spirit of your reply mostly), but I wanted to show you that whatever the communication issue is, it does not disappear when you address me personally. 168... 02:22 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I think we are now on the same page...

Yes, I think so. Thanks for being open to this dialogue and for taking my last post well. Of course, I meant it only to be constructive, and I did hope that you'd take it that way, and yet I know a lot of people would have reacted with pure rage. My compliments. You're right that e-mail is diabolical and can sometimes seem more trouble than it's worth. 168... 18:57 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Sorry, SR, if one of my edits altered your comments. It was unnoticed by me, and unintentional, if I'm the one responsible. Mkmcconn 17:58, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

How to Break Up

Dear Slrubenstein: I wonder whether you suffer from the same antiquated web browser that I use. If an article is too long, one will get a message like this:

WARNING: This page is 43 kilobytes long; some browsers may have problems editing pages approaching or longer than 32kb. Please consider breaking the page into smaller sections.

"Breaking the page into smaller sections" must be explained somewhere. I figured it out by seeing how others had broken up an article after it got too large for me to edit. They broke it into sections by inserting something like << Section One >> (but each < should be replaced by an equal sign -- I don't want to actually break this page up.

When you make several sections like that you will see on the edited page something like this:

Section One [edit] (a few paragraphs) Section Two [edit] (some more material) etc.

The page is now "broken up" because by clicking on the word "edit" one can get just the material in that section. (The section heads automatically appear as a table of contents at the beginning of the article.)

My problem has been actually clicking on the "edit" link with one of the old browsers that I use. But with my other browser it works well.

Even though the page is "broken up", if you click the original "edit this article" link at the very top of the page, you will get the text of the entire article and the message telling you that you need to break the article up. The software does not have sufficient AI to realize that the article has already been broken up. It just looks at the length of the block of material you just asked to edit.

I hope the above is sufficiently clear. If not, there must be an official explanation somewhere.

P0M 07:12, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Beliefs

P0M: I went to find something which "turneth away wrath" and found a great deal that may be applicable to a common problem of ours. (See Proverbs 15.) I am amazed at how gentle both you and Peak are. I, myself, am keeping in mind lessons I learned from an old book called Games People Play. I think I may need to review the game called "uproar" (or something like that). Finding what will not reward the player of the game may prove difficult unless Eric Berne has given some advice. I must find that book again.

P0M: I wrote a message to you on my user page.

P0M 06:37, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC): I've put some ideas on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Patrick0Moran/Race_rewrite (The edit wars on the race page have been snapping my patience.)

Faith

Good job of applying your clarity there. Perhaps it will help. Wetman 17:54, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Well I certainly agree with your points but I don't see how anything is going to get down under the current chaos of the talk page. I think we are just seeing a growing level of inevitable conflict as more and more users focus on a single page and have different beliefs. The whole "talk page" mode of discussion might work ok when only a couple people are debating -- but I don't think its working at all at DNA. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Well, I guess I belaboured my point a bit but it was fun and it did get him/her off the TALK page:) I am bloody tempted now to write something on the fascist roots of Ayn Rand for the Ayn Rand article... but I won't ;) Andylehrer 22:47, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Suggestions? Why mess around? I just banned him for 24 hours. If you disagree, complain. ;) -SV (talk) 21:43, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

BTW Why do you have comments all up and down your user page?-SV (talk) 21:47, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC) )

The Marx thing

Hi, I was wondering why you try to omit the quote that Karl Marx disagreed with "marxism" as it was popliticized in the 20th century? It's fairly instructive to readers that they should not confuse the "catch" with the "kitch". That marx was setting out to do analysys and people used his work to institute all manner of political impositions.

What manner of distinction between Karl Marx and marxism woud you make?

I think I addressed the issue of the Marx not being a marxist on the article talk page. That said, of course I see a distinction between Marx and Marxism. Marx was a person, and I think the Karl Marx page should restrict itself largely to things Marx actually did or said, with as brief as possible a section on his legacy/influence with links to other articles. Marxism is a set of values that guide both scholarly research and political action; a model for the historical analysis of social formations; and a body of work developed by people guided by such values and using that model. Slrubenstein

WHEELER and anti-Semitism

From Talk:Early National Socialism/draft

And by the way since you want to declare a pedigree just because your relatives suffered under the Holocaust.

The Nazis also committeed atrocities on the island of Crete. My uncle, Sirodakis, was a great underground fighter. It was my island that lead a ferocious resistance to the Nazis. It was my co-religionists, Catholic priests that went to the camps as well. And it was Jewish communists that destroyed the Orthodox Church in Russia. Many a Christian died in Jewish concentration camps in Russian before the Nazis ever killed a single Jew. So don't cry buster and don't wave your victimhood in my face.WHEELER 15:43, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

WHEELER complaint

Please see Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/User:WHEELER I need one (or two?) people to certify the complaint. If you can attempt to resolve the dispute or document your intervention on Talk:Early_National_Socialism/draft that would be helpfulAndyL 03:09, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Two things: One your last two emails to wiki-en dont show up on the WP:ML archives (something about some fancy client) and 2. I dont think you handled this well to make this a personal argument. This was verified by all the crap on the RFC page - you might have chosen to single out that anon AOL user as a target instead. Subjective interpretations (which I really dont understand anyway) designed to cause some survivor type "vote off the island" are bad form, IMHE. In any case you are absolutely among the most respectable editors here, and I'd hate to think that some stupid blowup caused you a distaste for the place. -Stevertigo 04:12, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I stumbled upon the WHEELER complaint during a review of the discussion of the Wikipedia:No_personal attacks article, and your byline in the complaint was the primary draw. Other things being equal, I would have ignored the proposed prohibition on hate speech as yet another symptom of Wikipedia's movement towards increasingly authoritarian principles. However, as Stevertigo stated above, you are among the most respectable editors here, so I took a great deal of time to review the complaint and research the underlying dispute. (Note: Much of your commentary on the mailing list is not reaching the archive.) After doing so, I was left somewhat perplexed by your position, but I remain open-minded and willing to hear exactly what good can come of a rule prohibiting hate speech on Wikipedia.

I note that you "sympathize very strongly, or just plain agree," with the proposition that "the best response to hate speech is more speech." What, exactly, makes Wikipedia a venue where this remedy does not apply? In the particular instance where you accuse WHEELER of anti-semitic remarks, it is not at all obvious to me how a prohibition on hate speech, presumably enforceable by a ban, would be more effective than noteworthy Wikipedians such as yourself censuring such objectionable behavior.

As I said, your complaint got my attention, and you have to mark it on the calendar nowadays when I delurk and actually become a participant observer on Wikipedia. Like Benjamin the Mule, I don't believe that life on Manor Farm is going to change by changing the rulers, much less the rules. // NetEsq 19:22, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Commodity Fetishism

Moved from userpage

Hi. Could you spare an explanatory comment in the Commodity fetishism discussion page? I corrected errors of oversimplification in that article, but you apparently favor those over my - perhaps overcomplicated - improvements. Wondering if we can't refine that process a bit in the next round? Adhib 22:35, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I'm noting the style points you offer and formulating a better article. Adhib 23:43, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Idolatry

Mr. Rubenstein, Hinduism is the oldest religion in existence. So the claim that the Bible was written before Hinduism is not necessarily true as there is no historical evidence for either viewpoint. That alternative view note was added by 2004--- even though that is the view of Hindus. Hindus were the only ancient peoples never to have persecuted Jews so the view is not really the alternative view.(perhaps the ancient Persians for only a brief time were the exception.) Please also see article on religious pluralism.

As I said, some historians argue that Hinduism is not the oldest religion in the world. This is a legitimate POV. The claim that Hinduism is the world's oldest religion is a different POV. I do not understand what "the view is not really the alternative view" means. Slrubenstein

the viewpoint of 2004 is not an alternative view of Hindus; It is in fact the view of Hindus but I have chosen not to edit his note. He added the note, alternative view of some Hindus to my note which had the contents. You are correct that some historians do not feel that way. I think animism and spirit worship preceded Hinduism and Judaism. As for the Bible's mention, some historians have said that King Solomon, son of David, had trade with south India.
I have removed the alternative view.

I think the bible was written before hinduism was written. This is because writing existed first nearer where the bible was written. However, I think the bible was written after hinduism came into existance. This is because writing didn't exist that long ago. 81.156.181.197 19:11, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand how history works. Although stories in the Hebrew Bible surely date more than three thousand years ago, the Torah probably didn't exist until the Babylonian Exile, and the Tanakh didn't exist until the Roman exile. What is true for the Jews -- that their religion formed after it claimed to have formed -- is true of many other religions. Most historians see Hinduism as coming into existence in the 19th century as a result of English colonialism. Certainly there are texts refering to "Hindus" long, long, before the 19th century. But that does not mean that we know what relgion they practiced, and it does not mean that what we call "Hinduism" today is what those people, thousands of years ago, believed. The British drew on elite written texts to create a "Hinduism" that largely erased the Muslim contributions to and origins of Indian civilization; that reified and codified a caste system that made it easier for the British to apply indirect rule; and that made possible a monotheistic Hinduism European Christians could find more palatable. Slrubenstein

Dear reader, it appears the problem with this work arises because Slrubenstein has confused Hinduism with Sikhism. Note also this 10th century Hindu temple Image:Khajuraho_Temple.jpg (which clearly existed before the 19th century). CheeseDreams 19:15, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, I meant what I meant. This temple certainly exists, but the question is, did it mean the same thing in the 10th century as in the 20th? Did the word "Hindu" mean the same thing in the 10th century as it does in the 20th? The word Hindu comes from a Persian word to refer to all peoples living east of the Indus river, who were not "people of the book.". In other words, at that time "Hindu" was a geo-cultural term, not the name of a single, systematic or clearly bounded, religion. The 10th century photo is of a Hindu temple in this sense -- a temple serving some group of people living east of the Indus. Slrubenstein

Cultural and Historical Background of Jesus

copied from Pedant's discuss page: Please take a look at the section of the talk page on "edits as of Nov. 1." I am in an editing dispute with CheeseDream and someone has protected the article until the matter is resolved. I would appreciate it if you would look at the last version of eh article by me, before it was protected, and compare that to the last version by Cheese Dream, and then go over my discussion with him on the talk page, and comment. Thanks, Slrubenstein

Ok, I made extensive comments, not sure why you think I'm the one to ask, but thanks for the implications that seems to make. I'm going to consider it a complimentPedant 03:07, 2004 Nov 4 (UTC)

I notice Slrubenstein is trying to bring people who he sees as supporters of his POV into the discussion (see his contributions list). I do not think this is a very NPOV thing to do. CheeseDreams 00:13, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree. The point is not to get one's POV into the article, the point is to make a good article, that's factual. I hope you read my comments, and that you see that my point of view is that the article's subject is defined in its title, and that it's an article that presupposes an actual man named jesus from 1st century Judea, and that all information in the article shoould relate to that, as its subject.

You should note that I didn't agree with either of you entirely, and that in one case I disagreed with you both. So what, right? My agreement doesn't make either of you right or wrong, and I suspect you both know more about some aspects of the topic than I do. Good information that doesn't belong one place can always find a home where it fits perfectly. This situation won't go forever, let it play itself out. The wiki always works, it just sometimes takes a while. we all have tha same goals here, writing a good encyclopedia... people that don't share that goal just slip away unnoticed, the articles they worked on get polished to near perfection and nobody get's hurt. It really works.

I actually think that if you two are both really good wikipedians that you can find a way to make a good team. Opposing viewpoints work great together, if they are trying to make good articles, and not just debate. You both have added value to the article and to its discussion. Feel free to link to this thread, on my page or yours, or copy it somewhere... and let me know if I can be useful in any way. Thanks for dropping by.Pedant 00:34, 2004 Nov 5 (UTC)

copied from my talk pagePedant 00:36, 2004 Nov 5 (UTC)

I am not accusing you of POV bias. I left the note to merely point out to Slrubenstein that I have discovered what he is up to. By the way, he has started threatening to delete a whole section which disagrees with his POV from the Historicity of Jesus article now. As well as slandering my name on the Talk page for Cultural and historical background of Jesus against thencivility policy. CheeseDreams 00:41, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Posting this to both your pages: Would you and he like me to mediate this? I think we could wrap it up pretty quickly, and I am interested in the topic, and you both are, and seems like a lot of others don't want to get involved. I'd think some sort of informal friendly discussion on a neutral page would be good ... we are all active so we can probably work this out fast. I'd be happy to do it.Pedant 02:18, 2004 Nov 5 (UTC)

The passage I threaten to delete is one that literally makes no sense (the writing is obscure) and that seems to be based on no research, and does not reflect scholarly views. I explained this on the talk page and provided time for discussion. No one (as of last night) was able to explain the non-sequitors, provide evidence, or scholarly citations. I think it is completely within the Wikipedia policies for an editor to point out a problem in an article, suggest deletion, provide reasons, and allow for debate on the discussion page before making any changes. That is all I did and I don't see how anyone could criticize me for it. CheeseDream's acts would have the effect only of censoring my views. If CheeseDreams is asking for mediation, and Pedant is offering, I have no problem with that. However, I must clarify my own (or original) position: CheeseDream says my action is "not a very BPOV thing to do" which to me is just one more prrof that he does not understand NPOV or the Wikipedia process, which is collaborative. There was a little revert war brewing on a page, and I thought that rather than engage in an endless discussion with CheeseDream, who seems either not to understand or agree with anything I say, the best sollution (in my opinion, better than mediation) is to braoden the discussion -- to get more Wikipedians involved. I thus asked Pedant if he would comment. Note: I did not ask him for support, and I did not ask him to take any action against CheeseDream. I asked only for comment. Pedant himself wonders why I asked him. It certainly isn't because of some conspiracy against NPOV, as CheeseDream suggests. The fact is, I know little about Pedant and have no idea whether he agrees with me or not. What I do know is this: he commended on an earlier version of the article, or he made some edit, or somehow expressed some interest in the topic earlier. That is the only reason I asked him to comment. I looked at the history of the article and talk pages and left messages for a few people who had been involved earlier. That's it. I do not see how inviting a broader discussion is in any way bad; on the contrary it is what we should strive for at Wikipedia. CheeseDream is now slandering me by accusing me of orchestrating a conspiracy; he is exploiting the concept of NPOV to justify his exclusion of points of view other than his own; he is discouraging a more general discussion which is essential to the collaborative process of Wikipedia. These are procedural issues and on these alone I think CheeseDream has been acting in a malicious and damaging way. Slrubenstein

OK - but I suggest mediation and taking it to a /subpage and dealing with some better writing compromises. It takes me som time to get up to speed on what the threads have been, but that also lets me step back and open my big mouthful of generalities based on the merest tactile and osmotical impressions. But it looks to me like it can use some rewriting, both for articulation and to address the problems with the oxymoronic contexts of "ancient history." And while were at it, maybe it also needs some divine guidance with respect to the filling of gaps in our limited material history. ;) -S V 02:00, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Inquisition

Responded. Stbalbach 01:49, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Question for you

Email sent, I'll reply to your reply quickly so please check a few mins after writing back FT2 21:31, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

Rfar

I'd similarly prefer you not ammend your request to mine, which already covers yours. What you have would be better suited to an evidence page, I think. Snowspinner 19:36, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

Open Encyclopedia